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  • #40262
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    Editorial Team
    Participant

    Welcome to the Biofeedback Forum

  • #40927
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    VJansen
    Participant

    I’ve been working as a neurofeedback therapist for ten years. We help to alleviate symptoms by training our clients to learn how to change their brainwaves. This is done by putting a few sensors on the scalp which pick up the brainwaves which go to a computer. The computer changes them into a video (such as a rocket or flower). You then learn how to make the rocket go, or the flower grow as your brainwaves normalize. After 15 to 30 sessions, depending on the severity of the symptoms, your brainwaves normalize and you have no more migraines. Neurofeedback works for many other brain-based symptoms such as insomnia, ADD/HD, PTSD, anxiety, panic attacks, epilepsy, etc. **edited by moderator due to content which is commercial in nature**

  • #40928
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    Teri-Robert
    Participant

    Can you show me peer reviewed journal articles with clinical trial data to support your statement, “After 15 to 30 sessions, depending on the severity of the symptoms, your brainwaves normalize, and you have no more Migraines?” This just isn’t right. That’s not how Migraine works. If it were, someone would be winning a Nobel prize for medicine, and we wouldn’t be living with this disease.

  • #40929
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    VJansen
    Participant

    There are some peer-reviewed journal articles at ISNR.org (International Society of Neurofeedback and Research). It is difficult to do clinical trials since the research subjects receiving the therapy can tell they are receiving the therapy. With a drug trial, the subjects don’t know they are taking the real pill or not. To view these studies, go to ISNR Comprehensive Bibliography of Scientific Articles. **edited by moderator due to content which is commercial in nature** An excellent book about neurofeedback is “A Symphony in the Brain” by Jim Robbins.
    Neurofeedback is finally getting more well-known by word of mouth. As more technological advances are made, this field is growing in the U.S. as well as around the world.

  • #40930
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    Teri-Robert
    Participant

    With all due respect, I have read some of that material and still take exception to your statement about “no more Migraines.” Any treatment that could accomplish that would have been promoted not only by the media but by many, many dedicated Migraine specialists and researchers I know (including some who work with and recommend forms of biofeedback and neurofeedback) who want to find more effective treatments. We’d know about this treatment, be using it, and there would be no need for sites like this one. Migraine is a genetic neurological disease for which, at this time, there is no cure. There are preventive treatments that, for some of us, are the next best thing, but NONE of them get rid of all Migraines permanently. That’s just too big a claim to sustain.

    If you were to say that this therapy can help some people reduce the frequency and severity of their Migraines, I could agree with you. I can’t, however, agree with the statements you’ve made thus far.

  • #40931
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    apost
    Participant

    I started suffering from migraines in my early teens. Over the past 18 years I usually get anywhere from 2-4 migraines per year which completely stop me in my tracks and require that I check out of reality for the day. Not easy now that I have a 3 and 1 year old. I’ve tried several migraine medications but none of them work for me. Late last winter I was introduced to neurofeebdback by a friend. Over the course of approx. 12 weeks I did 2 sesions of therapy per week. I have not had one migraine for a year now. It’s remarkable to me.

  • #40932
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    VJansen
    Participant

    The only reason I am writing on this forum is to let people know about neurofeedback treatment for migraines. I am not, in any way making any statements that are commercial in nature. Here is a video about neurofeedback that was filmed at a neurofeedback training. It is from the perspective of professionals from around the U.S. on how neurofeedback has changed the way they can help alleviate neurological symptoms.
    youtube.com/watch?v=MKbw4ar7WxQ

  • #40933
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    Teri-Robert
    Participant

    Your statements may not be commercial, but they are over-reaching. I stand by my previous replies to you. “No more Migraines,” which you said, is over-reaching.

  • #40934
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    VJansen
    Participant

    The neurofeedback institution where I received my training is now international and uses state of the art equipment. They are continually improving on their percent of success due to improving computer technology and fine tuning the thousands of clients they work with. Their success rate with migrainers is 95%.
    They are now improving on this with a relatively new therapy of rewarding ultra low brainwaves. With the remaining percent who still experience migraines, there is a new device worn around the neck that sends out minute electrical signals that the brain can detect. This is getting close to 100% alleviation of migraines.
    Neurofeedback is gaining acceptance in the medical community slowly. Partly due to the doctor’s trust mainly in pharmaceutical options.
    I’m hoping migrainers will research this growing therapeutic technique on their own before they pass it off as being too good to be true.

  • #40935
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    Teri-Robert
    Participant

    95%? Getting close to 100% alleviation? Kindly provide data from registered clinical trials published in peer reviewed journals that can back these claims. No insult intended, but that’s the kind of evidence we need to see to back such statements, and it’s the same thing I’d ask of anyone, including someone takikng about pharmaceutical options, or ANY option. If you can’t provide that kind of data, then you shouldn’t be making the claims.

  • #40936
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    VJansen
    Participant

    Here is a comprehensive list of peer-reviewed clinical trials:

    QEEG guided for Recurrent Migraine Headaches
    Walker, J. (2011)
    Clinical EEG and Neuroscience 4(1), 59-61

    Neurofeedback and biofeedback with 37 migraineurs: a clinical outcome
    Stokes, DA, Lappin, MS. (2010)

    On the Pathophysiology of Migraine – Links for “Empirically Based Treatment” with Neurofeedback
    Kropp, P. Siniatchkin, M. Wolf-Dieter, G. (2002)
    Applied Physchophysiology and Biofeedback 27(3), 203-213

    Self-regulation of slow cortical potentials in children with migraine: an exploratory study
    Siniatchkin M, Hierundar A, Kropp P, Kuhnert R, Gerber WD, Stephani U. (2000)
    Applied Psychophysiol Biofeedback Mar 25(1):13-32

    EEG biofeedback for post-traumatic headache and cognitive dysfunction: A pilot study
    Packard, RC, Ham, LP (1997)
    Headache Quarterly 8(4), 348-352

    The efficacy of neurofeedback on migrainous neuralgia
    Walcutt, DL (2001)

    The most recent trial was done almost a year ago. Technological advances since that time have occurred and are ongoing.

    I agree that more trials need to be done to keep up with the technology. These trials do take time and an enormous amount of money which drug companies have access to. This is the main reason that neurofeedback is slow at gaining approval from the medical community.

  • #40937
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    Teri-Robert
    Participant

    OK, VJANSEN,

    I just spent over an hour on PubMed going through the references you listed. The last two, I couldn’t find, but I read the others.

    Let’s start at the top of your list…
    QEEG guided for Recurrent Migraine Headaches
    Walker, J. (2011) Clinical EEG and Neuroscience 4(1), 59-61
    This study had only 71 patients, 41 of whom were in the neruofeedback arm of the study. All had Migraine without aura. The best statistic in favor of neurofeedback is that 54% experienced cessation, and 39% had a 50% or greater reduction in Migraine. Might sound impressive, except for the fact that placebo rate is ofter 30% or higher.

    Neurofeedback and biofeedback with 37 migraineurs: a clinical outcome
    Stokes, DA, Lappin, MS. (2010)
    It appears that none of the whopping 37 participants experienced cessation. Of the 37 migraine patients treated, 26 patients or 70% experienced at least a 50% reduction in the frequency of their headaches which was sustained on average 14.5 months after treatments were discontinued.

    On the Pathophysiology of Migraine – Links for “Empirically Based Treatment” with Neurofeedback
    The abstract had no study results, and the full article is available only to subscribers.

    Self-regulation of slow cortical potentials in children with migraine: an exploratory study
    Siniatchkin M, Hierundar A, Kropp P, Kuhnert R, Gerber WD, Stephani U. (2000)
    The abstract had no study results, and the full article is available only to subscribers.

    BOTTOM LINE: Where the study results were available, they were very small studies, AND none of their results were even close to the statistics you claim. Thus, your claims of a “95% success rate” and “getting close to 100% alleviation of Migraines” cannot be substantiated.

    I’m not singling you out – or neurofeedback. I would challenge anyone making such statements about any modality of treatment. Until valid clinical trials reported in peer-reviewed journals are available, you have no business making such claims.

  • #40938
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    VJansen
    Participant

    I am wondering if there are any medications or other therapies that can claim a 54% cessation of migraines. Clinical trials have very stringent guidlines therefore are very time-consuming and extremely expensive. The neurofeedback community does not have the resources to compete with the clinical trials of drug companies.

    Neurofeedback is an evolving technology which will eventually prove that our percent of success rates are correct. I am hoping that new updated clinical trials
    will be done soon, but my main hope is that people suffering with migraines will learn about this technology.

  • #40939
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    Teri-Robert
    Participant

    I’m not going to play the statistics game here. I think neurofeedback is a great modality. That hasn’t been my problem with your posts. My problem has been your posts in which you used much higher numbers with no stubstatiating data.

    Let’s keep in mind too that the study with the 54% cessation number has only 41 participants and has not been replicated. I would have the same objections to any study that was that small and hadn’t been replicated.

    Everything is evolving — neurofeedback, many complementary therapies, pharmaceuticals, everything. That doesn’t mean people should make unsubstantiated claims.

    As I said, I’m not going to play the numbers game with you. It’s comparing apples and oranges anyway. Plus, I don’t give a fig what the treatment is if it works.

    I have no problem with discussions of neurofeedback or other valid modalities of treatment. However, I will dispute any unsubstantiated claims, no matter who makes them about what treatment. Just keep that in mind, and we’ll get along fine.

  • #40940
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    Ellen
    Participant

    Hello VJANSEN,

    I think that perhaps you are not understanding Teri’s concern re: your post.

    There are literally dozens, maybe hundreds of people claiming online to “cure” Migraines. There are at least as many who also claim to have magically discovered the “cause” or a miraculous cure. Our jobs as patient advocates is to be sure that those we lead in our communities have a safe place to come where they can trust the information they are reading. Most importantly is our concern that misinformation and bogus or inflated claims are challenged here so readers can learn the truth. We want our readers to know that what they find here can be taken to their doctors and used to initiate a conversation that will be helpful to the patient’s treatment plan.

    Bottom-line is this- we welcome and yes, even encourage those who wish to inform readers of something that may be helpful to them, so long as they are truthful and transparent in their posts. With Teri’s insistence you have produced information that will allow readers to consider neurofeedback as a possible addition to their treatment plan. You cannot back up your initially inflated claims however, which means that there will be some who will see this as deception and most likely will ignore it as a valid possible treatment option.

    First impressions are important in communities that are made up of knowledgeable members who have been duped by unscrupulous snake oil salesmen… Or communities run by advocates who make it their business to protect their members from such harm. Here you have encountered both.

    First impressions are vital in a world where patients are desperate and often misled. My suggestion is, from this point forward, do not make claims that you cannot substantiate. It makes community members assume that you either don’t know what you are talking about, or that you are trying to pull a fast one. I’m sorry to say that frankly, nothing said after a false claim is going to change that opinion by the reader.

    So as moderator, from this point forward, I think it is best for the community at large to leave these particular points where they stand. This forum was designed to be a positive, safe place for readers, so let’s make sure it remains just that. If you wish to continue with different points, I encourage you to do so, but otherwise creating your own platform in the form of a blog etc might be a betterr place to continue writing. I encourage you in any case to be sure to back your statements up with tangible, searchable research so we can recommend such research to our readers.

    Facts, facts, and nothing but the facts… Thank you. :)

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